Dennis Prager & Immigration
Published by Mike Stark March 28th, 2006 in Dennis PragerI don’t get the issue… I’m not afraid of people that aren’t like me, so all this hysteria doesn’t bother me.
Some of the most most beautiful words ever written, as far as I’m concerned, are:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Where does it say in the Declaration of Independence that the rights our Creator endowed upon us are contingent upon being born between the Rio grande and the 40th parallel?
I don’t see a very large gap between nationalism and rascism. Both are the fruits of irrational fears.
Prager, as is his wont, distorts the issue again. He, after hanging up on me, claims that I have no problem if 100 million people move to this country. I do have a problem with hundreds of millions of people wanting to move here - but my problem has to do with the overcrowding of the earth… and that’s an entirely seperate issue.
He never addressed my question: What is wrong with law abiding people, that simply want to provide a better life for their families, moving here? From a moral perspective, what right do we have to say to these people, “No - you stay in that cesspool of poverty, allow us to continue exploiting your country for its natural resources. We’ll take from you, and you can’t improve your circumstances by moving here.”?
Because the truth is that we could not sustain the life we live without taking from the rest of the world. So really what we are saying is, “Give me what you’ve got and stay out!”
Yeah, I have problems with that.
24 Responses to “Dennis Prager & Immigration”
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Give a good listen to the theme music Prager uses to open his show. It’s some menacing, militaristic piece that sounds like it was ripped from a Tom Clancy movie or a “first person shooter” video game title.
It’s the same with Hugh Hewitt. Check out the beginning of his show. And Hannity, ugh, gag me.
Every time I hear this stuff I think “chickenhawk”. Pre-pubescent boys playing war games on our airwaves.
Another point - I’ve noticed from both callers and hosts over the past few weeks that more and more they are referring to themselves as “Reagan Republicans”. It’s the hot new moniker as the noise machine tries to distance itself from Bush. I believe Bill Maher made a comment about this last week, too.
Thanks for your work, Mike.
Very well said, Mike! Great points, and the only reason more people don’t hear more of this sensible opinion is that we are being blocked from the airwaves by corporate-owned media.
Regarding the comment above, Michael “Savage”’s theme music is bombs and sounds of a battlefield. I don’t think he recorded his theme “live.”
Im curious Mike…do you believe that other than for terrorists and criminals, everyone should be allowed in the country without going through any process whatsoever?
And if someone enters or stays illegally, does that not make them automatically a criminal?
The people who are currently here illegally feel it is their right to be here.
Funny thing is, if I were to enter their home countries in the same fashion, there is no question that I would be deported or jailed.
And this is not about xenophobia…it is about not creating a permanent underclass and preserving the middle class, which, if the wingnuts get their way, will disappear in 20 years.
bacci:
I know I’m extreme on this… but from a purely humanist perspective, I don’t think there is any justification for limiting the movement of people… either from here to there or from there to here.
the paragraph quoted in my post pretty much says it all for me. it just happens to be an area in which I am extremely libertarian…
The way I see it is that I was extremely lucky to have been born in the United States. I didn’t do anything to earn my citizenship. So from a moral perspective, I just don’t see why I “deserve” anything for that. And I don’t see the justice in denying others the same opportunities I’ve had.
I hear a lot about the money we’re spending to educate their kids… on emergency health care… on law enforcement… etc. etc. etc.
Those are problems seperate and distinct from immigration…
If you want to make your case, you’ll have to do it by contradicting the portion of the Declaration of Independence I quoted above. If you can do that, I’m all ears. If you can’t, then I think I’ve made my point.
Well Mike,
The declaration is a fine document…but it is not what we base our laws upon.
Nor is what is written at the base of the statue of liberty what we currently base immigration law upon.
And Mike, the issues that you stated are not seperate and distinct from the immigration issue.
What I find so disturbing is that liberals, in an attempt to be fair minded, are playing right into the wingnuts hands.
The current crisis was caused by wingnut policies in order to enrich their corporate buddies.
I have heard liberals say, well, if you make everyone legal, you can organize them and then wages will return to their normal levels…and everything will be copacetic.
That was exactly what was said during the Reagan years…and what occured was an even larger flood of illegals to fill what the coporations felt must stay as low paying jobs.
Please take a look at both the tech and construction sector 10 years ago and what they are today.
Look, if you advocate for open borders, that is fine. But an open border policy only works if wages stay comensurate with skill level…and they arent. It only works if the open border policy is a two way street, and we are allowed to enter those other countries unfettered….and we are not.
Amnesty and guest worker programs are unfair to those individuals who follow the law, and apply for citizenship legally.
Want to see the end result of guest worker programs? Take a look at europe.
This isnt a philosophical or moral question….it remains a question of survival for a middle class in america.
Humanism must be balanced with reality.
“If you want to make your case, you’ll have to do it by contradicting the portion of the Declaration of Independence I quoted above.”
Unfornately for Mike, refuting his point as usual is easy. United States law is all that is necessary.
“Federal immigration law determines whether a person is an alien, and associated legal rights, duties, and obligations of aliens in the United States. It also provides means by which certain aliens can become naturalized citizens with full rights of citizenship. Immigration law serves as a gatekeeper for the nation’s border: it determines who may enter, how long they may stay and when they must leave.”
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Immigration
(3) The term “alien” means any person not a citizen or national of the United States.
How to legally immigrate to the US states is covered by a series of laws, as noted in the above link. The main law is the Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1952. http://www.immigration-usa.com/ina_96_title_2.html
Section 204 reads in part:
204 PROCEDURE FOR GRANTING IMMIGRANT STATUS
Sec. 204. [8 U.S.C. 1154] (a)(1)(A)(i) Any citizen of the United States claiming that an alien is entitled to classification by reason of a relationship described in paragraph (1), (3), or (4) of section 203(a) or to an immediate relative status under section 201(b)(2)(A)(i) may file a petition with the Attorney General for such classification.
Mike must answer why he opposes any nation, not just the US from making laws to control entry of non citizens into their country. The US does not prevent people from coming here and becoming a citzen. The US Congress has created through law a process which immigrants must follow in order to become a citizen. They follow the laws, they become a legal citizen.
Some more helpful quotes
For INA purposes, an “alien” is any person who is not a citizen or a national of the United States. There are different categories of aliens: resident and nonresident, immigrant and nonimmigrant, documented and undocumented (”illegal” ).
States have limited legislative authority regarding immigration, and 28 U.S.C. § 1251 details the full extent of state jurisdiction. Generally, 28 U.S.C. § 994 details the federal sentencing guidelines for illegal entry into the country.
Congress has total and complete authority over immigration. Power of the President is limited to policies on refugees. Unless the issue concerns the rights of aliens to constitutional protections the courts have rarely intruded.
The need to stem illegal immigration prompted Congress to enact the Immigration Reform and Control Act (IRCA) (http://www.usda.gov/oce/oce/labor-affairs/ircasumm.htm) of 1986. The IRCA toughened criminal sanctions for employers who hire illegal aliens, denied illegal aliens federally funded welfare benefits, and legitimized some aliens through an amnesty program. The Immigration Marriage Fraud Amendments (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d099:HR03737:|TOM:/bss/d099query.html) of 1986 sought to limit the practice of marrying to obtain citizenship. The Immigration Act (http://www.law.cornell.edu/usc-cgi/get_external.cgi?type=pubL&target=101-649) of 1990 thoroughly revamped the INA making allocation of visas more even among foreign nations, eliminating archaic rules, and increasing the level of worldwide immigration.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/index.php/Immigration
How about this: instead of exploiting Mexico, and being terrified of them coming here - why not be an honest partner in the world and work to raise the level of jobs and quality of life in other countries?
Then they wouldn’t have to come here for a decent living.
This difficult situation was created by the short-sighted policies of our merchant class. Instead of justifying even more short-sighted and selfish actions, why not stop blaming liberals for a problem created by conservatives?
Southern son,
That is exactly what I said.
problem is, we have an administration that is gung ho on the idea of outsourcing.
and all outsourcing does is create low paying jobs in other countries.
liberals dont have an answer, because there isnt one.
how exactly are we to improve the quality of life in other countries, when most of those countries governments are corrupt and in the pockets of the corporations.
this is no longer a consvervative vs liberal issue…it is a people vs the corporatists issue.
what we are slowly watching is the wallmarting of america.
enjoy it.
Immigration is a much more complex issue than I used to think. My old view of this was that I was all for legal immigration, as it bolstered our competitiveness and demonstrated the attraction that our values of personal economic freedom and equality before the law had for people around the world. I was against illegal immigration, however.
Then I came to understand that a lot of good people come here illegally. Not just some hard working bracero come across the Rio Grande, but Chinese workers who come here in SeaAirLand Vans for religious freedom and Irish lawyers who overstay their visas after visiting their cousin in the Bronx. In short, a vast array of people, most of whom are a value added, don’t come here legally. (Nor did my ancestors who visited from Canada and then stayed in about 1875.)
There is a difference between malem en se and malem prohibtem offenses, between murder and jay walking … or coming here illegally. To try to make this, absent more, a felony is a shonda.
Additionally, our economy would be in serious trouble without the illegals and rounding them (all 6 to 11 million of them) would require Boer War-style concentration camps for them or Malayan Emergency-style strategic hamlets for us. (Not that the line between us and them is all that distinct.) That said, there needs to be a system for this. The 1986 system didn’t work. It’s time to find one that does.
bacci40
The rhetoric of the outsourcing term is typical of liberalism. It is an emotionally charged topic. Liberals use it to evoke the emotion that Americans are losing their jobs because of greedy, evil corportions.
However, this is a fundamental misunderstanding of economics. Products have life cycles, as explained here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_life_cycle_management
While some jobs have moved overseas, the US has gained jobs as well.
http://www.gulfcoastnews.com/News Stories/NissanOpens.htm
http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=77222
This is the nature of the global economy in the 21st century. So now if you buy a Kia or Nissan, you will be supporting American jobs. I don’t think you can argue with that.
http://www.gulfcoastnews.com/News Stories/NissanOpens.htm
Damnit that link doesn’t paste correctly.
http://www.conway.com/ssinsider/bbdeal/bd001113.htm
This one also tells the story.
chuck2
how does america gain jobs when call centers and tech support now originate in the phillipines and india?
show me as many links as you want…it doesnt add up.
do you know what happened when everyone put themselves on the do not call lists? the companies outsourced all those sales call center to the phillipines and india.
Its ok…stay asleep, and when you wake up, you will wake up to an america that no longer produces anything and is just a step above a third world country.
but dont worry….you will still be able to afford a dell computer…made and supported in india.
“The plant will employ up to 4,000 workers. The “lion’s share” will come from Mississippi, according to Nissan officials”
“South Korean automaker Kia Motors Corp. will open a $1.2 billion plant in Georgia, creating almost 5,500 new jobs in the state, officials announced Sunday night.”
There’s 9,500 jobs right there.
Hey Mike, let’s keep this simple. If you want to have such a libertarian view on immigration, let’s see you live up to your ideals. Why don’t you take in some of these illegals into your own home? Afterall, we wouldn’t want to see them homeless, would we? Come on, man. Open up your home and let them all come in. Not practical, you say? Kind of like not practical to let thousands, millions, or more just move freely from “here to there”. That’s got to be one of the most ridiculous positions I’ve ever seen you take. It’s just ludicrous, dude. Talk about chaos!
I live in NYS. I’m taxed to death already, and I certainly don’t need to pay more and more and more for illegal aliens’ health care. There needs to be an orderly immigration process. And, there needs to be procedures put in place to prohibit the mass immigration of illegals to this country. It’s that simple. There’s no sane argument to the contrary. Get real.
I also live in NY… I feel your pain, brother…
But I also, at my core, believe all men (and women) are created equal… I believe everyone deserves equal opportunity.
It’s just one of the constituent ingredients of my being…
I know there are practical problems to solve… freedom can be messy. But fundamentally, the place of my birth should have less to do with my fortunes than my talent, persistence and character.
But what you’re failing to either recognize or admit is that it’s not that there’s anything particularly unique about the United States from a geographical standpoint. We’re not blessed with vastly different natural resources than Mexico. We’re part of the same hemishphere and continent.
This “equal opportunity” you speak of is due to our laws and our economic system: capitalism. Hey, I’m not going to be the one to say capitalism is the be all and end all. But it’s the “American Dream” these illegals are in search of. And I don’t blame them for coming, either. But the opportunity they are searching for is to make a better living for themselves and their families.
Mike,
Your veiws are not grounded with reality. I live in Los Angeles and I can not stand to see our quality of life threatened by this massive influx of illegal immigration. Our public schools suffer, traffic is at a stand still, the emergency rooms are overcrowded and the people that use them are majority illegal with no health insurance.
These are people that get paid under the table and therefore contribute nothing back in terms of taxes. They are simply sucking the resources that tax paying citizens are paying for.
Have you seen the way that Mexico treats their illegal aliens from Guatamala. The illegals there are not allowed medical care, they are not permitted to go to school and are easily exploited or returned to their country.
When I hear you go off on this way left tangent it really makes me wery that even though I can’t stand bush or the war or going into debt or prolife initiatives that I don’t want to be part of a party that has your mantality. I wish there was a middle ground of rational people a purple party not caught up in the far right or extreme left. Mike you scare me. By the way I give to Moveon.org and vote democratic, but it is people like you who talk about ideals but are totally not grounded by reality. My guess also is that you do not have your own kids.
Robert:
I’ve got a baby girl and very few people agree with me regarding the libertarian approach to immigration that I take… almost nobody espouses the human-centric view that I do.
That’s life. I’ve never met anyone that I agree with 100% of the time, and I kinda-sorta hope that I never do… but I can tell you that we agree on much MUCH more than we disagree…
best,
M
Mike,
I appreciate your kind response. I do agree that we do agree on much more than we disagree. This is just a hot button for me and I see the ramifications of this wave of immigration. I do not intend to offend. I totally support your web site and most of all your ability to burst the wingnut radio bubble. Keep up the great work.
By the way, congrats on the baby girl.
Robert presents Mike with empirical observations of the result of illegal immigration and all mike can do is say:
“I’ve got a baby girl and very few people agree with me regarding the libertarian approach to immigration that I take… almost nobody espouses the human-centric view that I do.”
Mike said this about in his Feb 8. post “Tony Snow and NSA leaks”:
“Oh, there are many questions raised by this administration’s complete disregard for law… have fun in the comments… ”
How come you do not raise any questions about illegal immigrants complete disregard for US immigration law?
I tripped over this blog while surfing and thought I’d read a bit. Mike, it sounds like you’re really not interested in debate, but just stating your position. You never answered MakeSense! arguments.
If you are such a staunch humanitarian or religious if you believe that we are all *created* equal, then what exactly are you doing to help equalize your priviliged standing with those less fortunate than yourself other than making ridiculous arguments on this weblog. Do you give until it hurts so much to charity that your lifestyle is equal to someone’s in say Guatemala, volunteer time away from your family and your keyboard to help the disadvantaged in other countries, work at a non-profit organization which aids 3rd world countries, refuse to have any children because any children born in the USA will require food and services that could otherwise be available to someone more needy? What is it? Are you willing to take in a family of peace-loving illegal immigrants into your home and support them as MakeSense! suggested?
If you do, then good for you and let’s hear about it. However, it has been my experience that most people who say things like you are really generous with other peoples money in the form of taxes, but when it comes to any kind of personal sacrifice, suddenly they’re no where to be found.